Podcast Transcript

Jo Rogers

Joining me today is Rosie Barker, who leads the client services team at the award -winning digital marketing agency, Footprint. Rosie is here to share insights from Footprint's remarkable client service delivery and to offer strategic advice on evolving your team dynamics in tandem with business growth. But before we start, if you haven't already, please do subscribe so you get notifications of all future episodes. Not only does it help you not to miss out on any episodes, but it also really helps my podcast. Thank you.

Rosie, thank you so much for joining me today on Client Success. I really appreciate you taking the time to give our listeners your valuable insights. To kick things off, could you share what distinguishes Footprint's Client Services team from the competition?

Rosie Baker

Yes, definitely. So I've actually been really fortunate to have some new team members join and kind of give me some feedback into their previous roles. So at Footprint, we call them relationship managers, but they are account managers, they will do the conversation between the work from the delivery team to the client. But the reason we call them relationship managers is because we really do like lean on the fact of building a relationship with a client. As cliché as it sounds, we want to be part of their team and be sort of friends with them and really get on with them. And when I was a relationship manager, I generally have like really great friendships with some of the clients. But I think like listening to the feedback from the new team members, they actually say that we're a lot more involved.

The idea is that I actually want the relationship managers to be like strategists on the account. I want them to get so involved and take ownership of the strategy that we put together. So as much as a lot of this stuff is sort of teamwork and we'll have amazing delivery team kind of build the strategy, I actually really want to train the relationship managers to lead on that. So they get involved in so much. The idea that I have for them is to have the foundational knowledge across everyone so that they know a piece of everything that's going on in in footprint so that they can then create this strategy themselves and it really gives them the opportunity to take ownership of those work streams, really lead the account and if anyone were to kind of go off sick or go away they can actually pick up where they've left off and that's sort of the idea around it they get so ingrained into each client it's more than just I wouldn't want to say that it's an admin role in these other agencies, I don't know that, but the idea that we're not just admin, we don't just talk to the delivery team and then pass that information on to the client and vice versa.

We can answer those really hard questions. They really do know what's going on with the account. So yeah, that's kind of how I feel like we are different to the competition. A lot of the team do say it's very intense, but in a great way, like it's not one day's the same. So yeah, I think that's my goal really with my team is to make sure that they they are leaders and they basically do everyone's job in the nicest way. And then we have a really strong, strong team. So yeah, that's kind of it.

Jo Rogers

Music to my ears. I love this Rosie, because this is exactly, if I had my own agency, that's exactly what I would do. And I think that's sort of the world that I grew up in is that's how flight services were and should be. They should be strategic because that's basically what.

clients want. And if you've got a strategic team, then they also are able to not only impart advice to their clients, but they're also able to identify growth opportunities, which is definitely what you want. Yeah, definitely. So for you, Rosie, how do you ensure that your team is equipped with the expertise to offer that strategic advice to your clients? Do you have any methods that you put in place for this?

Rosie Baker

Yeah, we've actually got quite a lot, to be honest. So I think education is massive for Footprint. So just to kind of give some context on how we calculate time, because although we say calculating time and the time you give for education sometimes does go out the window at times. But essentially what we do is we calculate the month as 150 hours. That is on a short month as well. So it's all calculated on the month of December being we're all off. And so that's the hours you fit. And then we actually give the percentage of that to, so 108 of that would be billable.

And then the time between 108 and 50 is kind of like, we do days out with the team and stuff. And, you know, on occasion, it could be holiday and stuff in that. But the idea is that they can use that time for education. And what we do is then deliver education to the team themselves. So there's lots of things that we do. We have an academy that we request everyone to join when they, when they start. But that is essentially learning all things digital marketing. And you get some really great opportunities to be taught by, we've got some great expertise within the team that can teach that. We also do like shadowing opportunities across all teams so that they really get to learn different parts of everyone's role and just understand how it works as a business for one, but also as I say, we've got some great team members that have been doing this for such a long time and their knowledge is incredible. So just kind of really shadowing those people as well.

In that we also do like back to school days. So that's essentially where we come together as a business. And we not only like work out how we can improve as a business, but it gives you the opportunity to really understand how we function. And I think you never really get to know, well, from previous experience, I've never really known what's our financial status, what's the market like at the moment. We never really get that information, but we make sure that that is shared within the team.

So there's a lot of education that's going on aside that obviously I take measures like growth framework as well. So we make sure that everyone is on a growth framework. We know exactly what they need to improve on and what steps they need to take to get to the next level. And all of that is kind of that we tier it in a way so that the ultimate goal is that you are a strategist. You really learn kind of across the board everyone's role, what they're doing, knowledge about the industry so that you can kind of get to that position. So there's a growth framework there, but there's so many opportunities just to learn and grow. It's like the most important thing within our business.

And I think there's always, we call each other sponges. Are you a sponge or a rock? And if you're a rock, obviously you can't absorb any more knowledge, whereas being a sponge is something that's really important to us. And then I guess the main thing as well is like, it's kind of drummed into me, but our director does this. We throw people in the deep end.

So whether that's you go and teach a lecture at a university because we have some partnerships there or you lead on a call that you haven't led on before. So throwing them in the deep end is something that I think is really important because that will kind of build strength and also confidence in yourself. Like doing something that scares you is what we say as a team, like do something that scares you every day and you'll learn from it.

Yeah, we're really important in terms of like education, just to equip them to just grow and be that real strategist for the clients. And so, yeah, that's basically my importance. I want the team to have time to just build themselves and build their career. And it's like the most exciting thing to see when you see, we have a lot of students come in and you can really tell that and then how they grow to this like really amazing digital marketer. It's just crazy. So yeah, that's, that's what I do.

Jo Rogers

It's fantastic, and I think that one of the things which is so key here is that you're giving them time to be able to do this. And I think that's one of the things that agencies are failing to realise is that you have to, you know, you can't make every person's hours billable. You have to give them time. Even if it's not education, as you're saying, you know, it's learning about the client, learning about the client's industry, learning about different marketing, education about your clients and about

your agency and your products and your services and marketing is so fundamentally important. And I love the fact that you have recognized and understood that that is such a vital role for client services, because ultimately, that's only going to benefit your clients. And it's also going to benefit your team as well. I bet your retention rate must be so high, because the opportunities that you're giving to your staff there is not just here's just one thing that you're going to learn. And then that person either feels deflated or bored or feels the need to go somewhere else to find a new opportunity or to push themselves further. You're constantly pushing, you're constantly giving opportunities to learn something new and maybe find an area that they're more interested in. But that's fantastic, Rosie. I'm really impressed.

Rosie Baker

Yeah, it's really great. I think we, like where we are kind of a small agency, still somewhat growing, there's so much opportunity to kind of make your own pathway. And we obviously support that, but I think it's down to education. And with some of the team members, we've seen them go and create like new services for clients that we wouldn't even think of just because we've given them that level of education. And it also, yeah, it doesn't necessarily stop there. Like we have free three core kind of services, but actually we have so much more than that because it streams off into other things that people have learned.

And I think it gives people drive as well. My dad always used to say, I don't know what I want to do with my career. And I'm still like that sometimes. I just still don't know what I want to do, but I'm doing stuff that I really enjoy. And that's what kind of matters. And it will take me off into different pathways, sure. But the fact that I don't know what I want to do, but I'm still enjoying it and I get to learn and figure that out within a company that's allowing me to learn is so great. And I think that's what transpires into the team as well. They get to go and just try different things and if it works, brilliant, if it doesn't, and they've learned from it and that's what we really encourage. So yeah, it's a great place. I'm a big advocate of education, a great place to work. I think we're really keen to push people in the direction that they choose and also then benefits us as well because they bring something new.

Jo Rogers

Yes, it's that accountability piece, isn't it? And ultimately what you're doing also is trusting them. Yeah, that's also a learning lesson. And then they're going to take something from that and do it differently next time. Yeah, that's a big thing. I think that there are a lot of agencies that have are starting to lose faith in their teams. You start to feed into this feeling of unsettled, not feeling like you've got any great opportunities, not feeling fulfilled in your job. And I'm sure that they probably feel like they aren't trusted and they're not valued in the company. So from what it sounds like in footprint, you're doing a fantastic job of that. So well done.

Rosie, we've talked about this previously in a conversation that you've mentioned the principles of open, honest and fair at footprint. Can you delve a little bit more into what these values manifest in your services?

Rosie Barker

Yeah, definitely. So I think a little bit to kind of what you were saying before, I think the open, honest and fair in terms of staff and the team, it's all around psychological safety and we really want to make sure that everyone has a safe space just to speak freely in a constructive way, but speak freely to one another and kind of give that criticism where it's needed. And I think that's exactly in terms of like the education part and growing part of that with the back to school days and being very open about where we stand as a business, I think that's really key. Like we want to listen to anyone that has something to say about that. And I think that then transpires to those conversations with our clients. I think on occasion, we definitely have clients that are probably put under a lot of pressure. So they put that pressure on us or they have like set ways of thinking about certain things and it's not always right.

And so we're here to kind of just give that truth, whether it's a hard truth or just an open conversation, but we want to make sure that we're open with them. If things aren't working within the strategy, we'll definitely tell them that the amount of times where there's the rush to get change and actually we need to take time to let things bed in, we'll have those conversations. But I think that kind of starts with us as a business so that they can learn from that so that they then have the tools to be able to have those conversations with clients.

And I think like one example that works so well is that we have an insurance company that I'm really close with. They were my client when I started. They're now one of my team members clients, but I'm still really involved. And we just have conversations about beyond their service with us, we'll have conversations about their business and their industry and how things are working, how what's not working. I'll get asked questions, you know, what would I do with this situation about a particular staff member, which would never be involved, like would never be part of their retainer, but we're having those conversations.

So it's not necessarily part of their service, but I'm now having those like constructive conversations with them that goes beyond what we're doing. It looks at their business. It looks at what more they could do for marketing, how I've dealt with staff members, how they can deal with staff members. And we just have some really great conversations and openly we'll tell them, I actually don't think that works for you or you should try this. And even vice versa, like they'll tell me, I think, why don't you try this with a particular staff member or why don't you try that as a way of giving feedback to better our services. So I think just being very open with one another and how things work as a business really pushes us to then have really cool conversations with our clients and be open with them. And that is also reflective back to us. We'll always get feedback from clients. I'm really keen to just make sure I speak to every one of them. So although I don't manage clients, I will just oversee everything.

I always want to keep in touch with them and just make sure we're getting that feedback so that they can openly tell us where we need to improve and action that as well. It's always great. Like we say, we get feedback and then doing nothing about it, but we make sure that we do stuff about what they tell us. But I think it's just really important to have a safe space for everybody, clients included, and learning from one another about how to deal with that feedback and giving feedback good and bad.

it's just a really important thing to kind of what stands at footprint. And it's why I've worked like wanted to work here for so long, because I've been able to just speak freely and be listened to. So yeah, that's kind of my approach to things. And I always say, like, put it in a phone call rather than sending an email to somebody, because I think that just never, it doesn't translate to what you want it to say. So just picking up the phone and being like, hey, how are you getting on? I've heard you've had a really tough time. Let's talk about it or vice versa.

So yeah, that's kind of how we transpire it. And I think we have some really strong relationships with our clients because of it. As I say, the particular client that I talk about, the insurance client, they always say, you can never come off the account. I need to speak with you all the time. And sometimes you just chat about life and I know all about their family and vice versa. And it's like they then become a real part of your work day. And to be honest, that's really ultimately where every agency wants to get to when it comes to their relationship with their clients.

Jo Rogers

Funnily enough, I was interviewing for my podcast, an ex -client of mine. wow. She was one of my very first clients. So 20 years ago. That's really cool. So I hadn't spoken to her for 15 years and it was the easiest thing to pick up the phone and have a conversation.

that because we'd built such a long relationship back then. And actually she, and she mentions it on the podcast, she called us a family. Yeah. Absolutely what you get when you build out relationship like that, exactly as you say, you know, their family, you know, you can have those conversations, you are having that open, open platform so that you're giving them outside of marketing, per se, you're able just to be a bit of a sounding board. And I think that sometimes agencies get a little bit too into this feeling of over -servicing. There needs to be this balance between what does over -servicing mean and what does building a relationship mean?

Over -servicing means that you're actually producing more assets than you should have been producing in the first place because your statement of work isn't got some boundaries in it. And there's just relationship management and building a strong relationship. So you become that indispensable partner and that's ultimately what you want to get to exactly as you say, you've got a client there that says, I can't lose you. Yeah, yeah. It goes knocking at their door and saying I can produce this and I can do this. Ultimately, they're thinking, but I don't want to lose this relationship that I've built. I don't want to lose the quality that I've, I've got here and the trust that we've built. And I know that I get value. That's so much more important than the new shiny object that's being shown over here as well.

Yeah, so you guys are doing a phenomenal job over there. And I also think the thing which that open, honest, fair thing made me also think about was internally. Because I know that it's really difficult between departments, especially for client services, you have to play that middleman between client and departments. And generally, they can be seen as a bit of a blocker or annoyance because, clients are feeding back and, you know, people take things a bit too emotionally and they struggle with the feedback. And I think if you've built that environment internally, where everyone knows that everyone's coming from the right place, you've clearly got a very client -centric mindset internally as well, which is so important. I think the team do as well, like that, sorry, but the team definitely do too.

Rosie Barker

I think it's very rare, not rare, I'm speaking as if I've been to another agency, I actually have been with Footprint for the majority of my career, but the delivery team even have that client services mindset in terms of, I think no matter what, even if we've done a fantastic job and we're all human, so if something goes particularly wrong, we will always try and learn from that. If a client complains or says something that they're not happy with, even the delivery team aren't to be like, well, I have done what I'm supposed to do kind of that defense mechanism goes up. We don't really do that. We say, well, okay, I completely understand that and I can see your point. Here's my point. And if their point is also like, actually, I think I'm a little bit right here, but they'll say, here's how I perceive that. But I completely see, and this is what I've learned from it.

And that's what we always try and achieve with that. It's like, what can you learn? Even if you've done absolutely everything exactly how you should be, what can you learn from that situation? Why has that client perceived it that way? and how do we make it better next time? So yeah, I think even having a team that also sees where they can improve is important and that's what they do, which is really great. For sure. And actually picking up on that point that you say there, how did your team approach and handle difficult client conversations or a client who's not particularly happy with, you know, whether it's, you know, your service or whether the results, how do your team approach those sorts of things?

The main thing that we kind of, we take a step back for one and just have a look at the whole situation. And normally I really encouraged my team as a relationship manager to handle that. I think that's part of their growth as one thing, but if they don't, I tend to jump in. I think sometimes it's, depending on the situation, it could be that the client actually isn't really having a good relationship with that particular RM, maybe a personality clash or what have you. So sometimes I then step in and say, let me have a look at it.

I think the biggest thing is that we just listen to the client because somewhere or another, whether they're wrong or we're wrong or whatever that situation is, they have a perception of us and something has kind of broken down there. So just really listening to them is what we really encourage because a lot of the time when it comes to sort of complaints and things like that, it is that added pressure that they're getting.

And so just like giving them some time to just really blurt out everything, even if they in that moment say some really harsh things about us, but it's just that level of emotion, just having that time to listen to them and note down everything that they're saying. I also give my team the opportunity to give me that feedback too, because I don't want to just say, right, well, the client said all of this and you're all doing a terrible job, do better. I really give them a chance to listen to them as well and let them have their kind of thoughts on it.

And then just have a conversation about it and say, look, this is how we've all perceived it. Here's your options of how we can do better. We can either go down this route or that route. We do try and jump on things quickly. I always get a gut feel, I think, and similar to with the other RMs, although we do things differently, there's always that gut feeling of like, something doesn't feel quite right with this client and I think something's going wrong. So we'll try and jump on that situation a bit quicker so it doesn't escalate.

But I think it's just, yeah, I think overall it's just really important to listen to what they're saying and just try and adapt and learn from that. And we always hold each other accountable within the team. Like you said, we create that safe space, but saying, you know, there's been moments where I've messed up. I think one time I went on holiday and I was just excited to go on holiday and I really needed it. And I didn't set an ad live for a weekend for an event. And so I was held accountable, but I wasn't shouted at or screamed at. It was just a, hey, look, you missed, you messed up here.

But it's okay. And as a team, we came together and we, I felt really supported by the rest of the team that was there. And even they said, to be honest with you, it shouldn't have been just on your shoulders. We should have all taken a bit of responsibility to check that. And as I say, a bit of a human error, but we all kind of came together. So we definitely support one another when one person or a couple of you might, might mess up in a way. And we're just really honest with the client and say, look, this is on us.

And we'll come to a solution of how we can improve, whether that's giving them extra time or having a look at something else, we'll just say, we'll come to that decision together, but we're kind of in it together, as you say, and I think that that's what's really important. So yeah, I don't know if I've kind of answered that in a way that isn't going here, there and everywhere, but.

Jo Rogers

No, completely. And I think the baseline of that was let your client feel heard. Yeah. It's the most important thing. Just allow your client to have the platform to be able to express how they're feeling. That's ultimately what, you know, if we all in those sorts of situations, sometimes just need to get it out. As you say, like sometimes it might not land great or they might say some things in the emotion of it that they probably wouldn't say in a calm environment. And it's about trying to be empathetic to them and not take it too emotionally. Take, like you say, take it away. Say to them that you understand going to look into this trying to keep emotion out of it as much as possible and look at it in a level playing field is the most important, isn't it? Definitely.

So, Rosie, you've clearly got a very functioning strategic team, which is fantastic. What's your client engagement methodology? So particularly, how do you streamline that onboarding process and offboarding process?

Rosie Barker

Yeah, so we've actually got, we've really adapted this in the kind of coming months as well and like really listened to our client feedback to kind of say, what more would you like from us? But the main thing that we kind of have learned really is that the first hundred days is really, really important in terms of an engagement level. And we call them like the sticky clients. If we can really get those first hundred days right, they tend to be the stickiest because they're really bought into what we're doing. It kind of started like when a sale dropped and we kind of moved to ongoing work.

There was always this like quiet period and like it feels, the client would say it feels like the momentum's dropped. Really behind the scenes, we're working so hard to get like a really strong strategy together. It's probably about that time when we get full access to everything. So we're looking at all the data to see whether we can like improve what's been working, what's not been working. So although it feels like the momentum might drop to the client, we're actually doing a lot of work behind the scenes.

In that moment, we've actually realised that that's a really good time for the relationship to start building. So sort of in that first month, what we tend to do is just kind of strip feed them content and real added value to what we're doing. So one of the things we might do is just send them that we've got a book that our director has written and we all kind of came together and wrote it actually. I mean, my name's in it. I read probably part of it and changed some, but didn't put half the work in that the director did.

There's a book that we have all around digital marketing, but like project, product, project management and SEO, PPC, conversion rate, optimization, all things digital marketing. so we might deliver that to them. We also have like an alignment session at the very beginning with the relationship manager, maybe with some team members, but that was really kind of getting ingrained into their business. We asked them sort of questions about how they work, like what it's like a culture, culture session. So what do they hold like dear to their heart that we can kind of take away. Like we really spend some time with the client and make sure that in that moment, although all this stuff's going on behind the scenes, they're getting a lot of information from us. So that's kind of sort of the first month.

And then throughout those kind of later hundred days, we introduce them to different members of the team. So it might be that they get a touch point with me and have a bit of a culture session with myself. They'll reach out like the sales team who they would have spoken to at the very beginning checks in with them and says, you know, we had these great conversations, how are you getting on? Do you feel like that's translated? We'll also, if they're on for one particular service, we might get another service team to look at them. So if they're on for SEO, we might get the paid team to have a look at their, like what Google ads they could be looking at, what social ads could they be looking at and things like that. So we just drip feed them with content throughout.

And I think while we're also working on them, we always when we have like reporting calls or any calls with clients, I really encourage the RMs to also educate them. So here's the work that we've done and here's why it's important and here's a bit about SEO and what you can learn this month. And so we're constantly drip feeding them education as well so that they can see the added value and go, that sort of makes sense. And then when it comes to sort of off boarding, as much as we'd love them to stay, not all it's not always the case, whether it's like a money problem or they've sort of seen the value and they've had budgets cut or something like that, it does, clients do tend to leave. So in that kind of off -boarding month, we just try and give them as much value as possible. So we'll give them as much documentation that they can take away, share with their team. We might deliver some education pieces.

So recently we've had a client that has left and they wanted to just do some content in -house. So we offered to say, well, why don't we just do some training? So here's how you can do keyword research here's some blog topics that we would write. And we've just given them some education so that the momentum of what they can be doing can continue and they can get the team to do that. And if it's sort of like a one -off project, we try and avoid the strategies come to a close and things like that and use those negative words of ending. We'll say, do you want to, here's what we'll do next and really push on that sort of stuff. Even if they don't take it, even if they're happy with just the project itself, we want to make sure we leave them with stuff that.

They could always be getting on with because digital marketing is never ending. It can always be worked on as you know. So yeah, we really just try and educate the client throughout. And I think that's what we do. It's sort of like while we're learning, we're going to teach them and let them learn with us. And so yeah, that's kind of the way to kind of keep that content going and keep touch points throughout their service with them. It's not just one person being the RM. It's this whole wealth of team that gets involved.

So yeah, that's, that's what we do.

Jo Rogers

And the off boarding of a client doesn't need to be seen as a negative thing. I think that people need to remember that there might be a reason that has ended the project. But it doesn't mean that they're not then they might have another opportunity or else. So you know, you have to consider your reputation, you need to consider potential referrals, you need to consider the fact that there's every chance that they could come back. So as you say, shouldn't be seen as a, this is the end of our time together. Again, take it too emotionally. How can you drip feed and maintain that relationship even past the point of them going with setting up email nurtures where they're getting industry insights and they're learning and you're educating them. You touching base with them every month or two, just to see how things are progressing with their business. And asking for referrals, all of that shouldn't, unless you have got to a point where you are losing a client through not pleasant situation, like has gone really drastically wrong.

An end of a project or an end of a client relationship shouldn't always be seen as that's the end.

Rosie Barker

Yeah, it never closes like that. I think the strongest clients we've got have always been ones that may have come back later or they've had a touch point with like Dave in sales might have worked with them previously and then they've said, I actually remember that I'm going to come back. And there's been so many times where we've not left it as a, we'd never want to leave anything in a harsh way. It's never, I just don't think it's in our bones to even do that.

Like one thing around, especially in the nature of sort of SEO, I've heard a lot of people say it's a bit like smoke and mirrors. I don't really know what's going on with them and I don't really understand it. And previous agency they've worked with have kept everything like so secretive because it's sort of like they're scared that if they tell them how they do it, they're going to go off and do it anyway. We've learned that actually giving our clients that level of like, this is how you do it.

If they choose to go off of it, great, that's fine. But nine times out of those 10, they go, that's really great. But you're the experts, you carry on. So there's never any harm in like delivering education and like how we do things. I mean, it's even back to that insurance company. It's even made, they know exactly how we're there on for paid advertising and paid search. And they know how it works. They could probably do it themselves, but actually they see the value in us doing it. And it's also made our conversations better because they might go, well, can we try this? And I go, I haven't thought of that. That's really useful.

So yeah, I just think that holding things from clients just never ends well. And so we just try and give as much value as we can through the work we're doing, but anything outside that as well.

Jo Rogers

I'm in complete agreement with you. I mean, the more that a client actually understands what you're doing, it's an easier process than to take them through because you're not having to constantly re -educate them through the process as well. Why are you doing that? Well, we're doing that because of this, this, this. Whereas if they know that, it just it becomes a very seamless transition of being able to say, well, here's what I need you to review. And yes, this is from this. And this is why we're going to change if this and they understand it. So much easier to work for both the client and the agency client understands what you're doing.

Yeah, definitely back on on the point that you made earlier, which I think is really important for people to consider because I call it the transition phase, which is that first hundred days. I don't think a lot of people are probably aware enough about how important that period of time is. I think a lot of people think, well, we've kind of done, you know, we've got them on board, we signed the contract, brilliant. Great. Now we just need to, you know, get into market or whatever your program is, get it live, finish the project. And we've, when we've done what we've said that we were going to do from the outset.

Actually, that first hundred days is so critical to building that longer term relationship. Doing all the things that we've talked about in this podcast about becoming that indispensable advisor, but also being that person that they can turn to and build that trust and feel that value. After those 100 days, you will generally find that you will see either a client start to drop off or you'll see a client that starts to engage back. How you have acted in those hundred days is so important.

The onboarding period, I think, is lacking from a lot of agencies' processes. I think they, exactly as you said, they go from contract sign, everyone's sort of agreed in principle what we're going to do. And then everything goes internally and you set up your kickoff sessions and everyone's working behind the scenes. And you might have maybe set up a status call to check in with them, but you don't set it up until the project, you know, you need them to start feeding into them. And that could end up being, you know, weeks.

And for a client, I mean, it's, can you imagine from a client's perspective, that's such a drop. Momentum's lost. To going, I haven't heard anything. I wonder what's going on. You know, the joy and excitement in what you're about to do has suddenly gone down. And then as an agency, you then got pick them back up again.

So much more effort to do.

It's important period for people to realise that they need to have those constant contacts and touch points with clients.

Rosie Barker

Definitely. I think with that as well, like obviously sales are sales and they're going to make it sound really amazing. They're trying to get you through the door. So they're hyping the client up to be like, this is how great we are. And that's exactly what you want them to do for them to just come in and go, and now we're quiet. It just doesn't make sense.

And I think there's a few things in that moment as well. Like we're honest with them. We say, Hey, look, the team are probably going to be a bit quiet because they are getting their heads down and working on it. And that's okay. But in the meantime, let's have a chat. Let's talk about things. Let's really get to understand your business and let's talk about you as a person and just kind of, as you say, listening to them and all of that sort of just relationship building stuff is so important to us.

And I think we definitely have learned that we've, we've lost momentum from clients before. We've had to pick it back up because of that. We've been quiet and gone behind the scenes. So yeah, it's just really important not to go quiet. I think even if you haven't got any updates, real updates, you can still chat to them and talk about marketing and insights.

Jo Rogers

And I think if you think about again, about it from a client's perspective, if you've gone through this sales process, been sold this great idea or dream, what you would be wanting then to do is to feel like that's the people that you're going to be working with want to then understand your business. While all of that's going on, you can take those time and that opportunity to start building that trust with your clients. Start telling you, get them to start explaining what is their business trying to achieve. Understand what their role within the business is, what their expectations are, what are they KPI'd on, who's the senior person that they have to feed into.

And then you can start to understand is there, maybe they have to feed back every month or quarter to their senior management team. What's that like? Can we replicate that in our reporting? How can we help them? All of that sort of stuff. If you have those conversations, clients are always going to want to talk about what they do. They're always going to be happy to impart that information and they will feel like you care if you're asking these questions as well. They're not going to see it as, my God, why are you asking me these questions? This is ridiculous. They're always going to think, God, if that makes me feel confident in them that they can't know about my business.

Because at the end of the day, everything that an agency does reflects on the client. If a client is commissioned an agency, it's going to reflect on them. So therefore if it goes badly, and that's one of the reasons why clients do get irate when they go wrong, because it reflects on them. Or if they don't, and they've now got to take that internally and speak to their sales team about the deadline that they put in place, now missed because of the agency. It still reflects badly on them.

Rosie Barket

And it saves you later on doesn't it as well? Like if you say actually they told me in like a quarter that they need to do a report why don't I get ahead of the game and do it. It just saves you so much time later on and even just those like nice conversations of like just little things. I tell some of my clients I've had to take my dog to the vet or something like that. Two, three weeks later I completely forgot that I even told them and they'll go how's your dog getting on?

That's just so nice. And we'd want to replicate that back. Like, how would your daughter's play or whatever and all of that sort of stuff.

Jo Rogers

I had it with clients who we were chatting, you know, and this is why I love face to face so much. We were at lunch chatting and she was telling me about how much she loves Wimbledon and the Wimbledon Ballot came up. So I just pinged her an email and just said, Wimbledon Ballot's come opened up. You know, don't forget to pop your name in.

You know, she was like, amazing. Thank you so much for reminding me. I mean, that didn't cost anything. It took me 10 seconds. It's those things that make them go, what a great person. Like what, you know, what a nice thing for them to do. And I really enjoy working with that person because they listen, and it's all about listening to people. They're listening to me. They're hearing what I'm saying. And if you're hearing what I'm saying on a personal perspective, you're going to be hearing what I'm saying from a business perspective as well.

Rosie Barker

Yeah, definitely. It's that level of emotional intelligence that I think is something we teach sort of within as relationship managers, about having that like that empathy, but the level of intelligence in terms of just, it is listening. Like the amount of conversations I used to have with some clients where I'll be talking to them and I can just see they're not even bothered. And that's probably where I've not done something right at the start to build that relationship because they're not listening to me.

Therefore they're not valuing what I'm doing. So probably in a few months time, they're going to go and actually, and it's so frustrating when you can see someone just blank in the eyes, not caring. So it's important for us to be listening to everybody and not, you know, one thing, my, one of my biggest pet peeves is if you're having a conversation and someone's like typing away or looking at another screen or, and I don't mind the note taking part of it fine, but it's that they're doing other work while they're talking to you and I can't, I just can't bear that, just listen.

Jo Rogers

And I think that's a really important point to pick up on there is the fact that listening is not just literally listening, it's also looking at that body language and especially in a remote world. And if you do start to see your clients face go blank, body language, or you know, they sort of sit back and you can do it. And I've been in meetings before, I've been in pitch meetings before, and you can start to see that energy shift. It's so important to pick up on that and change and adapt to what's going on in that situation. Don't get so fixated on, I have to say X, Y, and Z. I have to present these slides.

If you can see it's not resonating, if you can see there's an issue, stop it. Ask. Ask something. Ask them what's, you know, is something not resonating with you? You know, do you feel like we've gone down a different route? You know, ask those open -ended questions to start to actually see what's going on there because I bet you any money that client, unless you've done something really fundamentally wrong, will tell you.

You also mention say, well, actually, this is what I was expecting from this meeting. And you can reframe the meeting and go, okay, you know, let's put that to one side. Let's open up the conversation and let's just have a conversation. I don't need to take you through the deck. We can revisit that. It's not answering what you're expecting. We can do it in a different way. But you've got, but so much of that adaptability comes back exactly to what you've been saying at the beginning, Rosie, which is your team have to be able to have the knowledge, the expertise and the strategic acumen to be able to respond in those situations and have the confidence.

I think so much becomes under confidence. If you don't know enough, you're just going to be like a deer in headlights in that situation. Just go, I'm just going to power through because I don't know how to respond if the client says they're not happy or they want to be different because I don't know because I'm presenting someone else's strategy or I don't really know enough about the business and our services to be able to adapt this on the fly. And that to me is really, really important.

Rosie Barker

Yeah, you can't teach confidence, but you can certainly encourage them to learn what they don't know and learn that. And I think it is throwing them in that deep end. I've been in some really awkward conversations that I wasn't prepared for, but throwing me in that deep end and actually managing it, I now have the confidence to do that again and know what I'll do better. And one thing that I used to do is be a fixer. And if I could see that a team member is struggling, I would just jump in and take over and be that fixer.

And that was feedback from my team member that said, don't do that. I don't need you to fix it. But I think it's important to give them the space to try and actually go. And we'll also use their skills. I think as much as we harp on about education, if you don't have the chance to use it, you don't know that you can. And so, yeah, I think there's that part of it too, which I love seeing someone be put into a situation and I have the confidence in them.

And then they get asked those questions and you just see them flurry and go, that was amazing. You know, so it's, that's probably one of the best bits about being a manager is like seeing them grow and learn that and do the bits that you used to do.

Jo Rogers

So fulfilling. There's nothing better than being able to, and I think for you as well, when you, if you've got students coming in as well, it must be so rewarding to see that. I know.

I've got some team members that I worked with and they are flying high at the moment. And I employed them and I talk about this quite a lot. I did not employ them based on their experience. I employed them based on, I could see the traits that I wanted and needed from someone to work in my team. And they, on paper, they wouldn't have been employed.

But I saw differently and given the right guidance, the right mentorship, the right encouragement, the right freedom, I'm exactly the same. I'm very much a hands off, don't micromanage. You've got to give them the feeling that they've got ownership over their projects. 100%. They know that you're there at any point to step in if necessary and ask for things and everything, but give them that ownership. If they've got the right determination, tenacity, drive. That drive is important. It's so important. They will do it with the right support and guidance and trust behind them,

Rosie Barker

100 % That's why we have this academy as well. We're quite fortunate in that we do the academy and then we'll basically select a few to come and join the team. But we actually have like, before COVID it was in person. So I was actually on the academy at Footprint.

And it was 22 days for 11 weeks, so two days a week. And actually now I'm working here. I know that the whole time I wasn't learning, they were watching me and seeing if I had that drive and that, you know, like I would absorb and be a sponge and all of that. And so we now have it online for a week. So we have the Academy for a week. It's all online. But we actually get to watch and go, you're perfect. Interesting. That's a really good thing actually. Very clever.

I notice, you know, when the director will ask some questions and I'm like, now I know why you made me do that because it was to see if I would handle it and really sneaky. But it's, it is a way to just really make sure that we're getting a strong team and a team of people that have drive because I think that's what we all have that in us. We all behave differently and we've got so many different personalities and ways of working, but we all have the same thing in common, which is just the drive and want to do well and have a great career basically.

And I think that that translates to our clients in the work that we do.

Jo Rogers

Yeah, I can see that. So in a footprint, obviously you've experienced considerable growth, which is very impressive. And I can really, to be honest, can see why with everything that we've talked about, which is fantastic. But if you sort of reflect back on that journey, are there any lessons that you've learned that would influence how you'd approach things, you know, given another chance and you did it again?

Rosie Barker

Yeah, I think so when I think about this question, I think like there's so much I would learn from on change, but then actually we've come to such a great point and without going through it, I don't think we'd be here now knowing that sort of stuff. So I think one thing that's very apparent in all of us is we all have a really strong gut feeling about certain situations. And so we took too long to change or too long to do things differently.

And one thing that I love about us is that we will talk to each other so that our director will come and ask me questions about how he should approach certain things and vice versa to one another and I think that's really great but actually we probably all know the decision we need to make anyway so just trusting our gut situation in those moments and whether that's potentially letting a staff member go or hiring as well you know we've had some great candidates that we've wanted to hire but we might have taken too long to make that decision of whether we should do that and I think those situations we would probably definitely change and just trust I've got a bit more in that situation.

But I also think like personally as a manager I've learned so much that I would do differently in terms of just managing a team. I think at the very beginning I was like well how would I like to be managed and for me it's always positive feedback. It's you know giving me the freedom to learn and do stuff but actually some people need either more guidance or they want some negative feedback. The positive just doesn't really resonate with them.

So I've had to like shift how I've managed from how would I like to manage to them. And it sounds like a really obvious thing, but going against what your nature is, is really tricky sometimes and having to give sort of negative feedback in a way that's going to help them. I've really had to learn to change like that thing of not being a fixer. I think I used to fix so much and rather than just giving them the space to try and figure it out themselves, I would just jump in and then that would put myself in like burnout mode because I'm doing all of the tasks that I need to do, but then also trying to fix everything for all of my team. And actually they're more than capable of doing it.

I just needed to give them the chance. So even things like that, I think we would definitely, I would definitely do differently. And I am doing differently now, even sometimes I want to jump in and like my whole body saying like take over, not doing that and just going against that is, is what I'm learning still at the moment.

So yeah, I think that was a bit of a cop out of an answer, but yeah, I just think the gut feel is really, really important. We, like I say, where we hire, where we have that really lucky opportunity to examine people and do the academy and see who's kind of got our values and our way of working that also helps us and kind of makes everything a little bit easier because we're hiring people based on what we think is important to us and how they're going to add to our team. So I think we're really lucky in that sense. So in terms of our growth, I think that's been the biggest thing that's helped us grow because we can choose who's going to drive us forward and who's going to hold us back and things like that. So we kind of get that hard bit done. Sometimes when you hire somebody and if you've not gone through that phase of being able to sort of analyse them, then you might hire someone that's not right for the team.

And so we kind of skipped that bit, which helps us a lot. But, you know, in those times where we might need to have a tricky conversation, we just need to take action a bit quicker. And I think we're doing that now. And it's really great to see the team just, yeah, we just talk a lot and listen to each other. And I think that's what's helped us we're never going to lose that, I think, as a business, which is cool.

Jo Rogers

I think to be honest, Rosie, we could easily sit here and do a whole lot of work on what we should do on just team management, to be honest, because I think there's a big piece there, especially in agencies, on how to get the best out of your team. That point that you made there about everyone needing different things from in terms of like, I want constructive criticism or I thrive on being praised. Like every person is different and everyone needs different things. And that's, that's hard as a manager in itself to be able to navigate and learn and things like that. So I think that we should definitely do a podcast. A hundred percent. There's so much there with it.

Rosie Barker

Yeah, definitely. I think even just learning, I mean, we started from a small agency, so it was really easy to manage people that were like you, like mine did or worked in the same style. But I think I've got one team member out of the five that is like me. And so everyone's, she's doing amazing. But it's because I know how I would like to be managed so I can manage her well. The others are all different. And so I've got to really adapt to that. And it's been a real learning curve.

But even I think with that, we've had some team members that have left and not for any sort of negative reason, but on reflection of them leaving, I wonder if actually me changing how I potentially managed would have potentially ever kept them on or what would have, what would their journey have looked like if I did it slightly differently. So yeah, I'm more than happy to chat about that.

Jo Rogers

There's so much there. It's a bit that I really enjoy. Let's do it. So thank you, Rosie. I'm a massive fan of what you guys are doing at Footprint. You emulate everything that I talk about, if I'm honest. It's all about providing that strategic guidance to your clients, listening, everything you've been talking about in terms of building those long -term relationships, showing value, educating your team. We are no longer in the world where we can just sit back and expect people to learn from us just expect them to be able to have all the skills in place to be able to do it.

So fundamentally important that agencies give them the time to be able to do the research and learning on their clients and the time to be educated and given opportunities because you will reap the rewards not just from your clients, but your team. They will feel satisfied and they want to feel like they want to give 110 % to the agency as well because they're emotionally brought into you because you've bought into them.

So important. So thank you so much, Rosie, for coming in.

Rosie Barker

Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure and lots of fun.