Jo Rogers

I'm really pleased to have with me today, Natasha Gay, an incredible Senior Account Director who has worked with a range of clients, including Kindril, VMware, Dell Technologies, and IBM. I invited Tash on the podcast today because, as with many of my guests, I've had the privilege of working alongside her at a previous agency, and I truly value her insights. Today, we're going to delve into how to build sustainable, long lasting relationships with clients. So welcome, Tash. Thank you so much for joining me today on Customer Success Matters.

It's lovely to chat to you as always. Do you want to give the listeners a little background of your experience in client relationship management?

Natasha Gay

Hi, Jo. Thank you for having me and lovely to speak with you as always. I've been working in client services for around 15, 16, 17 years. I've got a lot of agency experience working with various clients on a day -to -day basis. Anything from project management, brief taking, creative direction, workshops, all sorts of things. And I think I would say client relationships is probably my superpower. So I'm really pleased it's a topic that you're talking about. With all of that experience, you must be very well versed in understanding how to build those long lasting relationships, especially looking at those big clients you've got. So could you give the listeners some key principles that you work to, to sort of ensure that longevity with your clients? Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the fundamental things that is often missed is trust.

I think it's really hard to get people to build trust. So you've got to build that trust over time. You've got to be real and authentically yourself. I think when people show up and they're not themselves, you can't get to know the person. So you can't get to delve into what makes them tick, what they like, what they don't like in order to be able to build that common ground and that commonality. So trust is something that sits as a foundation of a really good, of any relationship, friendship, one -to -one relationship and client relationship.

The other thing is transparency, which I think goes hand in hand with the trust issue. Being transparent with your client on what is possible, what's not possible, what's difficult, what's not difficult, doesn't show weakness. It just shows that actually at the end of the day, you are a human trying to deliver something. You're in a partnership with them. It's a two -way streak and actually over -promising and under -delivering is never going to work.

So making sure that your client understands the parameters of what you're working with and then building that sort of crystal clear glass that they can see through so that you can really make sure that you get across to them exactly what it is and what it is that you can and cannot deliver because that does build. But you know, clients will reward you for that. If there's something you can't do and you say that you can do it, I think that's trust and the transparency breaks down. And finally, I think owning up to when you don't know something.

So often clients will come with a really complex brief. They've got lots of nuances within their own company that you will not necessarily understand. And I think it's okay to put your head above the parapet and say, actually, could you just explain what that acronym means? Because actually that could be the difference between a copywriter or a creative or a PR person or someone going to market with a message A versus a message B, because you just didn't quite understand what that an acronym meant or what a particular product did. So actually just putting your hand up and saying,

I don't quite understand that and clients love to talk about themselves. So they would be absolutely happy to sit and talk to you, put another session in. They'll be happy that you've taken the time to understand their business. So I think those are the three things that I would say. Open, honest, trust, clear guidelines and parameters of what you're working with with the client and being okay to ask questions.

Jo Rogers

Tasha couldn't agree more. I mean, trust is always the foundation of everything. And I think that last point is really interesting. And I think that there would probably be a lot of client services people, maybe not even just client services people, just anyone that's client facing that probably has been in situations where the client has said something and they feel silly to actually ask the question of, you know, what does that mean or how does that fit with the proposition or all of that sort of information that as you say, could actually change the program that you're working on or make you understand the brief better.

but they feel like they shouldn't. And I think that as client services and the role that we have to take, and even in strategy role, you're not going to know everything. It's impossible to know everything about the client's business and that's where they shine. So having foresight to ask the questions and the relevant questions to be able to get that information shouldn't be seen as a weakness. It's actually a massive positive, as you like you say. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think juniors...

should do it more so that they become more knowledgeable and they can then grow as they go up the food chain to do it right up into seniors. And like I said, clients often like speaking about themselves, about their products, about their services. So taking an interest is something that will only put you in good stead. And if your client is annoyed that you've asked a question, perhaps you're working with the wrong client. That's a fair point. It does go back to something that I always say is that I think a really great

quality in a client services person is curiosity. And that's all about asking questions and understanding because the more you understand, the more you can support and service your clients better. So Tash, one of the things that I also think is incredibly difficult is trying to manage the positive client relationships with also balancing the business goals. When have you had pressures to hit say revenue numbers or campaign timelines are slipping due to the delays in their size? Like how do you deal with

the pressure that you're getting internally to still manage those client relationships?

Natasha Gay

It's a really good question. I wish there was a blueprint that allows you to be able to say, if I did this and I did that, then these all parties would be happy. I think there comes a point when as a business, so if I'm looking at it from the client services person's perspective, yes, you absolutely have a job to do. And that's to deliver your number, to make sure your projects run on time and to report back up to the business. So there's a lot of forecasting and project management that goes in the background. And that can definitely be a challenge, particularly if you've got clients who are wanting more for their money, so outside of the brief, or if projects are slipping. Knowing and understanding how to forecast is one of the key things. So understanding the trajectory of your project, really tight project timelines and project management is really, really key.

For me, how I like to sort of manage things with the business is if I've got a really good project plan and I know the key milestones and I've put a budget attributed to those key milestones. I will only promise the business the money based on how far we've got with the project. So therefore on a monthly basis, I should be there or thereabouts in terms of what I'm actually delivering to the business. Now, when you're at a time crunch and you've got to try and speed things up or got to make your revenue target and you're part of a team, it's about explaining that again, the transparency with the client, which says, look, I've got a, I've got a target to hit.

And Mr. Client, we promised that we would finish this. I've put the money towards this. Do you think it's realistic? Because I've got to go back to my bosses and tell them if I'm not going to hit my target. Your client might surprise you, particularly if you've got a really good relationship. They might say, do you know what? Fine. I'll just, I'll sign this off quicker than I was going to, or I might complete this or I can trace them or budget your way or whatever it might be. And there might be times when they say, actually, I can't help you, but at least you're knowledgeable and you know, you've communicated that and you can communicate that back up the business.

Jo Rogers

So I think that's a really good point, Tash, that you said about going to your client. And I think that's one of the fundamental reasons why having a good relationship with your client is so important. Because when you've got pressures internally, you need to know certain information from your clients. And some of those conversations can feel quite difficult to have, especially when they're about finances. So having that good relationship with your clients, because clients understand that you're an agency and that you have to...

invoice and hit targets and things like that. So being able to have that honest and open conversation is really beneficial for you to then, as you say, be able to go back and be honest and open back into the agency. And that sort of, it was interesting as you were talking, I was thinking about how you were saying that one of the ways to service your clients effectively is to have transparency, but the same thing applies internally, doesn't it?

You know, you need to have transparency internally. You can't go making up forecasting numbers based on a feeling that you think that you should be saying this because that's what the business wants to hear. It's about being honest and transparent about what you truly believe is realistic with the clients that you've got. Yeah. And I think

It's also important to make sure that you're getting the right support from the business to help you meet your targets as well, because it's not usually in an agency, it's not a one man's responsibility for you to pull together as a team. So it's about making sure that the rest of the team who are in your delivery, you know, your creatives, your copywriters, et cetera, understanding that the work that they're doing will help you hit your target and hit your number, which ultimately supports the whole business. So again, communicating that.

to your internal stakeholders. So internal stakeholder management is also super important on the client services side, particularly if you've got a bit of a challenging client. Absolutely. So talking about challenges, you must have come across quite a few challenges when it comes to client relationship management. How do you overcome difficult clients or situation that has caused a challenge between you and your client?

Natasha Gay

I think first of all, understanding where the challenge is coming from. So what is it? Is it a budget challenge? Is it a personality clash? Is it something that's beyond their control? Often when we're dealing in client services with a stakeholder, we forget that they also have some other stakeholders internally that they're having to speak with and answer to. So it's really understanding that that map of where they sit in the food chain and who else is affecting them, because sometimes they get on the call and they could be demanding of you, but actually it's because somebody else is demanding of them.

So first of all, understanding what that ecosystem looks like, I think is really important. Secondly, where the challenge is coming from. If it's a personality challenge, which we've all had 17 years, not everyone wants to get on with me, I'm sure. The key thing is understanding, well, what makes that person tick? Where are your commonalities so that you can see where can you be aligned on? And actually what are you not aligned on? And I think also using your team around you. There have been times when I've called a team member and I'm like, listen, she just, I don't know, she just doesn't like me or he doesn't like me. And I can't seem to break the barrier. And it doesn't matter if I talk about X, Y or Z, I just can't do it. Bringing somebody else in as the subject matter expert, making them feel like you're actually, you're recognising, okay, we've got an issue here and we're trying to bring somebody else in to be solutions led. I think being solutions led is really important. Understanding that you're both pulling in the same direction.

You and your client, regardless of what the challenge, want an outcome that is positive. So what does that look like? This is a bit of a, what I like to call a bit of a social contract between you and your client. They're paying you to do a job. They have to let you do the job and you're servicing them as a client. So you have to service them, which means you have to make them happy. So that social contract is something that we rarely speak about. Both parties are in agreement with that.

So when there is a challenge, whether it's a business challenge, a personal challenge, making sure that ultimately they understand we're trying to find the success for you and for us.

Jo Rogers

That's really interesting, Tash. And I wanted to pick up on that point that you made earlier about personalities. And I think that's a really important point because the reality is, is that sometimes personalities just don't mesh. And in an agency, you kind of have to decide whether quite early on, actually, I think, whether personalities will fit.

Sometimes you will get a client come through and there might be a sort of a bit of a personality clash. But in client services, and if you have a client like that, as you sort of said, sometimes you may not be able to build a emotional relationship with them, maybe just don't get to that level with them. But if you can be seen as that trusted advisor and that business advisor that can take your client through to the right direction,

You build a different level of relationship with them, don't you? So the utopia with the client is to build a personal and business relationship with them. But sometimes that's just not possible. It might just be a personality clash. It might just be that the client doesn't want that and that's okay. But you still need to build that level of business trust anywhere where they feel like they can see the value and they know and believe in the direction that you're taking their project or your program.

Natasha Gay

Absolutely. Building value can be done in so many different ways. And you're right, sometimes you can't make that an emotional connection, but making sure that they understand the value that you bring. And that's where I was saying about they're paying you. So they believe in you of some description they had to in order to sign the contract or send you a PO or whatever it is, you know, authorise the work. So reminding them that you're the expert or you can bring the subject matter expert, you're the trusted advisor and that you can bring value to them in some way, shape or form, even if you don't have that emotional contract with them, I think is really important. It's a good point you make. And we talked a lot about trust and I talk a lot about trust. It's the foundations of everything. Do you have any do's and don'ts about when it comes to earning that trust? Because obviously trust can actually be lost quite easily. I think structure at the beginning of any project or any relationship is really key.

So understanding from your client actually how they work. It sounds weird when you're talking about trust, but actually if you're working in a way that they work and you can adapt to how they operate, actually it can be quite easy to build that trust because you're already playing in a safe space for them. I don't have any specific do's or don'ts apart from just asking questions, always ask questions. And if you think you're being maybe too nosy or too intrusive most people can read the room. So you can kind of understand if there's a line of questioning that gets a bit of tumbleweed, perhaps you need to, you know, retract and find another avenue. But asking questions, how was your day? How's things? It could be anything. I mean, as British people, we love talking about the weather, the transport, whatever you've got as icebreakers, I think is really important. So you have these icebreaker moments, which people's personalities really do come out, you start to think, to see things that you wouldn't normally see.

And I think those are things that you can recall on next time you speak and then next time you speak, which help build that trust. Cause they're like, my God, she remembers this or he remembers that, or, my God, I can't remember it. I can't believe you told me this story and you remember it two years down the line.

Jo Rogers

Yeah. It's all part of that relationship management piece, isn't it? It's so important. And I, I always say that, you know, and I used to be like this, I used to drive people insane, probably internally questioning everything. But I think that the same sort of thing applies with.

and what we talked about earlier about ask questions to understand. The more you understand, the more you are able to support. The more you're able to support, the more client then feels like that you know and you understand what's going on in their business, what they're trying to achieve, who they are, what's going on in their personal life. As you mentioned earlier, adapting to them, maybe their...

working day is slightly different. So you're adapting to that. Maybe you then ask the questions and you find out what their challenges are and you support them in, I don't know, reporting back to the business or you find out that they love the creative process. And so therefore you get them more involved in the creative process. So asking all of those questions gives you so much more insight, doesn't it, into your clients and the way that they want to work. And when you start to do that, you start to build this sort of

unbreakable bond with them because you become such a delight and a joy to work with because they know that you know how to work with them best. And it's every meeting becomes an enjoyable process rather than, it's a task ticking process where I've just got to go and answer a load of questions. Actually, it's a nice conversation. And then it leads into work that you know is and trust is done in the way that they're expecting it to be. Absolutely. And I think just to add to that very quickly,

The seniority level of who you're dealing with, those things, those questions and that technique can change. So you can evolve if you're talking to a junior versus a C level. And I think recognizing those little nuances can also be really key because what a junior level person may have to report back to the business is very different to what a C level might have to report back down to the business, if that makes sense. massively so. I think you're completely right there. You've got to adapt it to the...

type of person that you're speaking to. And not just from a marketing perspective, there's so many stakeholders that are involved in programs as well. So asking those questions and building trust outside of your day -to -day contact is also incredibly important, especially with like sales and maybe even like an ops manager or, you know, even procurement. Building relationships with as many people as possible that you're going to have those touch points is only going to help not just yourself, but also the business that you're working for.

Natasha Gay

Yeah. And I think just on that as well, in terms of different touch points. Making sure that your stakeholder that you're dealing with or the stakeholders that you're dealing with know that you're available for them as a resource. So if they need to give a presentation to the board or they need to give a presentation to a client or a prospect or they're doing bid support or whatever it might be, letting them know that actually you're here to support them. You can help them tell the story, if you've got a bit of creative that needs selling into the business, there's no better people than the creative people. So offer up your experts to help their experts is really important.

Jo Rogers

It's that added value, isn't it?

It's going above and beyond and showing that you are that extension of the team that they can pull on whenever they need it to be within, obviously within the confines of what's realistic, but being able to show that you have that willingness and that you're able to support.

Again, what you want to be getting yourself to is becoming that indispensable agency to them. And ultimately, as we all know, clients move. So if a client moves to another company, if you've created that great relationship with them, they want to take you with them. And that's the way you then move into different, into naturally and organically into other companies as well. Yeah, 100%. And I, you know, I can't tell you the countless number of clients that have moved from place A to place B and take you with them.

Because at the end of the day, people like working with people. We all know this. So if they've built a great relationship, they're going to take you with them. I had another lady on a different podcast and she's been working with an agency for 16 years. And not only she and she's moved within that time she's taken them with them, but not only that, she's then also introduced them to 25 different companies. So just by building that great relationship with her.

They have opened up so many more opportunities for their agency all organically with no extra effort whatsoever. So Tash, for someone that wants to come into the role of client servicing, what advice would you give to them?

Natasha Gay

See, this is a strange one because for me, I think anybody could do this job if they have a passion for it. A passion for people, a passion for service, a passion to get things done, stick with things through the rough. I think you've got to have a good amount of patience. Being able to see things from a different perspective, I think is really important. So trying to put yourself in the client's shoes. So like we said, what does the client have to deal with? What's that? Who are their internal stakeholders? What's that ecosystem look like? What are they trying to achieve? How will this affect their, you know, their promotion or their job role or where they sit in the company or whatever it might be. I think it's really important to ask those kinds of questions. Service is key because you always want to be able to do a good job and actually you care.

You care about the job that you're doing. You never want to kind of put some something shoddy or mediocre in front of your client because that doesn't make you feel good. So you kind of got to have that caring bone. And I think ultimately good organization skills. If you've got multiple clients and you've got lots of things that you're juggling, being organized, having a good eye for sort of project management and multitasking is really key. And also not being afraid to put your, you know, your hand up and say, you need help.

Because as a client services person, sometimes we can get really overwhelmed with the volume of work that we're doing, with all the different tasks, the internal tasks, like your forecasting and your studio booking and your briefing, which are your internal tasks versus your external tasks, you know, speaking with the client, taking a brief, delivering work, whatever it might be. So I think that when that does happen and you do get overwhelmed, just being able to say, actually, can somebody give me some help here? Because otherwise, if you're too prideful, you're going to crumble because at some point it's going to come on top of you. So yeah, so I think the key things would be good organisation skills, really good project management skills, good people skills in terms of understanding where people are coming from and being able to interpret what people are saying. Because often clients will say they want one thing when really what they want is something, they want the output of something different. And finally, knowing enough is enough.

Jo Rogers

And I think, you know, the challenge that you have in client services is that you've got so many hats to wear as well, don't you? You're a financial controller, you're sales, you're project manager, you're a strategic advisor, you're a marketeer. It can be quite overwhelming and making sure they're incredibly organised and being able to switch from one client to a different project. There's so much going on at different times. You kind of need to be the kind of person that likes fast -paced, action -based, want to see the insights, want to delve into data. It's a challenging, but incredibly rewarding role, isn't it?

Natasha Gay

It is. And just as you're saying those things, I'm thinking also some of the things about there's things about flexibility, agility, got to be able to kind of pivot on the fly. You know, a client will throw you a bit of a curve ball and you've got to have those go -go gadget arms that catches that curve ball and reigns it back in. So on top of all of those things, you're absolutely right. And the key internal stakeholders, sorry, the internal side, like you said, the budgeting, the forecasting, the project management, those are all things. But you know, if you're going into this, a lot of this will be taught to you and lots of different agencies do it slightly differently. They have different tools, they have different techniques and technology has moved on massively to help ease up some of these things. I mean, I don't know about you, Jo, but when we were putting project plans together back in the day, every time something moved, we'd have to go move every little Excel spreadsheet, which would drive me.to distraction and take so long.

The younger generation, they can take advantage of some of these technology advances, which do really help in client services and client delivery. But yeah, I think a lot of these things, I wouldn't want Plum to be daunted about all those different hats that you get to wear, because a lot of it is taught to you through your agency, especially if you're a junior, you're coming up. I think having somebody who's a good leader, somebody who understands you, who can get the trials and tribulations. And you know, one of the key things I think as senior members of the team is we forget what it's like to be new. I always say this to people, you forget what it's like to be that shiny new penny that's coming through as a client services exec, you know, an account exec or a junior project manager or something like that. And this is going to be their first or second agency experience with all these different tools that they've got to use. There's all these different rules that you've got to follow of when you can talk to who and how and all of this kind of stuff. And then on top of that, the client which can be daunting.

So as a leader, it's really important to kind of remember what those first sort of three months feel like to somebody who's brand new and remembering what it was like for you when you started as a newbie. And actually you think because I can drive a car, you can drive a plane. They both have wheels. They both go forward. What's happening here? Do you know what I mean? And I use that analogy a lot because that's honestly how I felt when I first got my first marketing role. With people coming through now into the career of client servicing.

Jo Rogers

Kind of going back to what I talked about before about curiosity and asking questions. That's what I would do. And that's what I would say to them, like immerse yourself in everything. When you go to these meetings, listen to the way that everyone's talking, find your mentors, align yourself to certain people to learn. Because as you say, you're probably going to come in and not have a clue how to do any of the things that I just mentioned there. You know, you're coming in completely green. You might have a marketing degree, for example, or you might just completely come in with nothing, which is absolutely fine. And all of those things, as you say, can be learned. But if you're going to do it and flourish, you want to be keeping your ears open all the time. Listen to your senior people. How do they talk? What are the questions that they ask? How do they interact with clients? Because that's how you're going to absorb all that information. And it's also incredibly important for agencies to allow that to happen as well.

Don't hide away your juniors, don't hide away your, even your account managers and your account directors to have from having those senior conversations as well. You know, the only way that you are going to create the next level of senior people is to see how those conversations are had and to understand how to ask the relevant questions, etc.

Natasha Gay

I absolutely think you're right in terms of having the juniors in the room and having the seniors in the room and having, you know, whoever it is coming up through, through the ranks. I'm a massive, massive believer of that. I love to bring my team, take my team along. I think it's great exposure. You learn so much on the job. And I think juniors coming through, taking notes, I think is a thing of the past, right? We, I mean, I used to go in and have like notepad after notepad after notepad of things. But I think the old school of writing things down, absorbing it whether you type it into your phone these days or your iPad or your tablet or whatever it might be.

I think making sure that you do absorb that information is really, really key because that will stand you in good stead. And like you said, asking questions, absolutely key. And just being ever present, you know, being in the room. And I think there's also an element of doing your own kind of research. So we are used to be tasked to as a junior, go and find out about this client. Like who are they? What do they do? What do they offer? What's their infrastructure? Like how many, you know, what's their turnover? When's their financial year, all of those sorts of things that you take for granted because the internet is so readily available now. I'm an old lady, so these things didn't happen. There was barely internet available for these things. But you'd really have to go digging. Now you can just ask Alexa and she'll tell you the answer.

But do those things because I think it's really important to have that kind of knowledge and that autonomous learning, you know, that where somebody hasn't said, right, can you find me out this, you know, you want to be able to come to the table with something because when you know who your clients are and what they're doing, etc. You want to be able to come to the table with something, which I think is really an important skill as a client services person.

Jo Rogers

And not just taking everything as someone tells you, question it. So if someone's coming to you and I don't know, you're in your agency and they come with a new proposition and they're asking you to now sell this into your client or implement it into your program. Don't just do it, understand why. Is it relevant for my client? Is it the right thing to do? Is it going to benefit the program that I'm working on? Don't just accept everything that is told to you as golden. Question it so you understand it. Once you understand it, you will be, you'll inadvertently become the best salesperson.

Because if you understand your client, you understand their needs, their challenges, you understand the product and the service, what you're trying to do. It becomes natural and easy then to be able to upsell things and talk about your programs and talk about additional things that need to be added or changed or adapted or anything. That only comes with understanding and understanding only comes with, as you said, research and asking questions.

Natasha Gay

I used to have a saying called understand the why, and it used to be really around the briefing. The client would come with a brief and over the years through training and other things, understanding why the client is doing something is really important. So why are they doing the brief? Why now? Why this audience? Why this budget? Why this? Why that? Why the other? Because often, like I said, clients will come to you with a brief that you don't, they want X, but really what they want is the outcome of something specific. And they think if they tell you that they want X, that would give them that outcome.

But understanding why, what does that outcome do? Is it more sales? Is it this? Is it that? Is it the other? Can help you then retract back and do a better brief, a better version of what it is that they're trying to do. So yeah, I always used to have this thing, particularly with my juniors, which would be understand the why. And we'd do a session and they'd be like, here she goes again. Understand the why, right? Quick. But it is really important, particularly whether, like I said, whether it's in briefing, whether it's with your clients, whether it's internally.

Because even things like forecasting it took me a while to understand why it was so important because nobody had sat with me to tell me and I didn't really ask the question. So I think, you know, just from that perspective, understanding why it's important to do the things that you do. It's only been since I've gone through the ranks and I'm like, that makes total sense. Yeah, we totally need to forecast or we totally need to project plan or we totally need to understand know, where the studio is, what's happening in the studio, which as a junior, as an accountant exec, I just felt like it was annoying to do and didn't really get it. So definitely understanding why is so important. And it's something that I want to put into my team in every project that we do.

Jo Rogers

Totally super, super important. It's a really important point there, Tash. Thank you.

I think it's been really, really lovely catching up Tash and talking about everything to do with client relationship management. And we kind of went off a little bit, but I think it's great. I think it's so nice to just sit here and talk about all the things that we've experienced. And hopefully for those that are listening, they can really take some really key takeaways from this and be able to implement them back into their agency. Just a bit of food for thought about the way that they approach things with their clients. So thank you so much for coming onto my podcast and sharing your experience.

Natasha Gay

Absolute pleasure, thank you for having me.